Wednesday, November 28, 2007
Christ Commands to Make Disciples, Not Returning Customers
Below are 5 videos. Compare the first video with the remaining four. Is Spurgeon wrong? Are the 4 church videos Biblical? Please share your comments. They both can't be right. So who is?
Posted by Truth Matters at 8:54 PM
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39 comments:
The remaining four videos makes me sick. Don't these people know who God is?
God has ordained that He will receive most glory through His bride, the church (Ephesians 3:21). They should be trembling!
IBR
God is Holy Holy Holy. You either believe that or not! This Jesus and me got our own thing going is blasphemous.
Robert Longenecker
Will the McWorship series be different at LGC?
Departed old member
I'm tired of people saying things about LGC. Why don't you come to our church and see what's really going on. If our pastor preaches the word who cares if we have golden arches "dude".
I assume Spurgeon's words were from well over 100 years ago. The church was filled with filth then...how much more compromise and sin have we allowed into the church today, 100 years later? What would Spurgeon say if he were here now in 2008? Look at TV shows from 50 years ago compared to today. It just continues to get worse and worse as we compromise with the world...not only in the world but in the church! I can't even imagine what will be in the church in 2108! Girls will be wearing just thongs to church. Does that sound sick? Does that offend you? You don't think it could happen? Well, if you would have told the puritans that there would be MYLAMESEXLIFE messages in the church, they would have said, "no way!" If you would have told Spurgeon there would be pastors dropping F-bombs in church he would have said no way. If you would have told the Apostle Paul we would have stand up comedy in the Lord's house he would have said "no way". The church started by letting a little bit of the world in...and now the floodgates are wide open. Please Father, open the eyes of these men and their bright ideas of reaching people and make them walk in your statutes and preach the Word as you commanded.
Clowns giving communion, clowns acting out "spiritual gifts", clowns singing secular drunk songs, clowns mimicking male enhancement drugs...IN CHURCH?
We are to be separate from the world. In today's church I see no difference.
There are some(few) very good churches out there with a true reverence for God. I worship at one in my hometown but it took quite a while for my wife and I to find one.
These video's are an extreme. There are good "seeker" churches out there like Lancaster County Bible Church. Come and visit us.
LCBC...
http://bloodtippedears.blogspot.com/2007/08/lancaster-county-bible-church-lcbc-easy.html
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
You have no right to judge any church. Would you rather someone come to church because its fun or stay at home and not come to church at all? We just need to get them in the doors and make them feel welcome.
Jesus drew crowds by meeting their felt needs. Why can't the church? I agree, you have no right to judge a church that is willing to do anything to get people to come and hear the Gospel.
Tammi,
Show me where in the Bible that Jesus drew crowds by meeting their felt needs?
Historically those who loved the Church stood against man-centered doctrines.
"Meeting their felt needs" you have to be kidding me? The opposite is true. The Bible itself testifies that no man can understand the Gospel apart from the supernatural working of the Holy Spirit. The more you meet man's felt needs the less power of God!
Jerry Goodling
Do anything to get people to come?
Jerry,
One example....Feeding of the 5000...He met their felt needs by feeding them and then preached. Jesus met the felt needs of people many times therefore the church should be able to do the same thing. The difference is people's needs today might not be food...it may be music or sex or comedy or whatever. In any case its better for them to be at church than at home.
If this blog would be more creative you would have more interest. More interest means more people. More people means more salvations.
Tammi,
This has to be a joke, but it ain't funny!
You absolutely do not understand how a person gets saved.
J.G.
Thank you for your advice but I'll take the preaching of the unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit over fallen mans creativity and carnal ideas.
J.G.,
A person gets saved by God saving them through the preaching of His Word. However, I am stating that Jesus met the felt needs of others to draw crowds to hear that Word and that's what churches are doing today. Get them in the church using things unregenerate folks enjoy. Once they are in the church they will have an opportunity to hear the gospel where otherwise they would not have heard it. How can you disagree with that?
OK Tammi, if you give me $1000.00 I'll come to your church this week. And believe me that would meet my felt need!
And if God saved you it would be the best $1000 I ever spent! And I wouldn't be surprised if someday churches do pay people to come. I've seen somewhere where a church paid for everyone's gas that came to church. I can see where you might think it's a bit over the top but we need to get people to church that would not normally come to church. Most people, when they hear the word "church" think one thing...b-o-r-i-n-g. We need to change that.
Tammi,
Is that any different than a business operates?
No its not different. But the thing that cannot be argued is that it works. Let's be real for a minute...would you rather to preach to 100 people or 10? A church with good advertising and is culturally relevant will bring more people in to hear the good news. Isn't that, in the end, really what we want? People to hear the good news.
The quotes above from the "ends justify the means" false teaching students are just so grieving it is hard to even comment on them.
How about this one, it sums up every one of those others
"...I agree, you have no right to judge a church that is willing to do anything to get people to come and hear the Gospel."
Anything...except leave your circus box with the multi colored can lights and the smoke machines with pleasant to your ear teachings, no preaching of John 3:18 (the condemnation of everyone who doesn't believe) just the 3:16 Good News only.
Anything? How about this thought...take a coin and place it on a train track, when the train derails and all the town's folk
(pretty 'good' people, they just need to 'say the prayer') gather around the commotion you caused then preach the "Soft News" and well... hey, after all it was worth it, cause many said 'the sinner's prayer', the prayer NO ONE ever said in the Bible or until the late 19th century?
After all...in your thinking it is the 'attractant' that the Lord seems to NEED? The Lord of Glory isn't needy of sugar coating and lights and air conditioning or any one of your 'programs' with programed numerical results.
I think what we are forgetting here is discernment. Is it okay for a church to advertise themselves on the radio and welcome people to their church? Sure. Is it ok for a church to look like the world, act like the world, and smell like the world to attract people to church? No. God adds to His church through the preaching of His Word. We are to go out into the world and tell all nations the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But the church is primarily for believers. Of course we should invite people to church to hear the Word but as I mentioned, we should go into the world to evangelize. The church is to be seperate...completely seperate from the world. It's all about discernment. And no matter what you say Tammi.....when this silly stuff goes on in the church THE MESSAGE CHANGES! The message is toned down...watered down...is not the Gospel. So, the people that you are filling your pews with don't end up hearing the true Gospel anyway.
Tammi,
Do you agree that the only people who are saved are those who are reborn by the power of the Holy Ghost?
Yes I do believe that.
Then, Tammi...
I pray you heed this:
"Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said unto him, Your money perish with you, because you have thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter: for your heart is not right in the sight of God."
(Acts 8:14-21)
The power of the Holy Ghost is not purchased with money. If you pay someone $1,000 to come to a building, it is not going to constrain God to be obligated to save their soul. You be faithful, preach the Word in season and out, and faith will come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God if God shows that person mercy.
I do not believe God is obligated to save anyone. What I am saying is that people are hearing the Gospel that otherwise would not have because churches are willing to take risks.
"The term “world” (cosmos) has a range of meanings. In some contexts it means “the fallen world in its rebellion against God.” In others it means “the created order.” And in others it means “the arena of human affairs.” When we talk about separation from the world we are talking about it in the first sense of the term, in its sinful falleness. We are not claiming that Christians must separate from the arena of human affairs. But the church itself is not merely a subset of the world even in that third sense of the word. The church is not merely one of the religious expressions of the world, it is called out of the world. The culture itself is not neutral. The culture is heavily influenced by sin. The danger to the church is that the thinking and practices of the pagan culture find their way into the church. When that happens, the salt looses its saltiness and is worthless.
To distinguish between parts of human life in the world that are neutral (modes of transportation, building design, etc) and those that bring with them thinking and practices that are inimical to Christian faith, requires careful discernment. For example, consider Paul’s discussion of meat offered to idols in 1Corinthians. Though not ruling out eating it in some contexts, he warns of the dangers of the pagan culture and that its practices cannot be brought into the church.
As far as the seeker church goes, they have a deeper problem. Rather than purse gospel preaching that God uses to convert the lost and add them to the church, they feel the church has to be attractive to the lost AS THEY ARE in their unregenerate state. This is impossible unless the church is drastically changed from its Biblical calling. The false theology is that sinners have something in them that must be appealed to in order to “woo” them into Christianity. I believe the Holy Spirit convicts people of their sin. They cannot see the things of God as being attractive until after they are converted." - Pastor Bob DeWaay
I would encourage you to read Bob's book entitled, "Redefining Christianity".
Tammi,
What makes you so sure the true Gospel is being preached?If it's not, would you still want them to come?
Chris
To my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that promote the "do what it takes to get them in church" philosophy:
The "felt needs" issue:
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John 3:16-21 (ESV):
16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[Here comes the "felt need"]
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
Acts 2:42-47 (ESV)
The Fellowship of the Believers
(the role of the local church)
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42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
An example of early "seeker sensitivity"
Acts 5:27-42 (ESV)
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27And when they had brought them [the apostles], they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, 28saying, "We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man’s blood upon us." 29But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
33When they heard this, they were enraged and wanted to kill them. 34But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while. 35And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men. 36For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. 38So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; 39but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!" So they took his advice, 40and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
[Please read these 2 verses carefully!]
41Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. 42And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
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To Tammi, sister in Christ, you appear to have a zeal to reach the lost on behalf of your local church. May I encourage you to take that zeal and go out into the worldly places carrying not an "invite to church", but the Gospel. Take it to the malls, the college campuses, the parks, the restaurants, to visitors to your church, to your unsaved family members, to your unsaved friends. Spread the seed of the Gospel through tracts, 1-on-1 dicussion, letters, open air preaching, and any other "means" the Holy Spirit leads you to MAKE disciples (the key verb in the great commission)
Matthew 28:16-20 (ESV)
The Great Commission
----------------------
16Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
where can I get a published or written copy of Spurgeon's sermon. I would like to read it to my Sunday School class.
"where can I get a published or written copy of Spurgeon's sermon. I would like to read it to my Sunday School class."
I don't think this was part of a sermon. I am only able to find it as an appendix to a book, but you can find this in written form here.
However, there is another sermon where a Pastor named Jeff Noblit addresses this very same issue. It is called The BIBLE Driven Church. You can listen this sermon and download it here.
A pastor friend of mine recently preached a message that, while not being about 'seeker sensitivity', had a great point about it. As he put it (paraphrased): "Satan Entices. 'Did God really say..?' (Genesis 3:1). Or when he tempted Jesus, 'bow to me and I'll give you all this.'. so, Satan Entices, but God Calls. 'Pick up your Cross and follow me"
I'm not sure which Spurgeon sermon was preached in the above video. But at the bible bulletin board web site you can find many of Spurgeons transcripts.
http://www.biblebb.com/
Thank you for the information on finding Spurgeons writings and sermons. What a breath of fresh air, even though it was spoken long ago. <><
Dear Tammi,
I see that you say churches are willing to take risks. If you saw some guy on a college campus with a Bible in his hand preaching repentance for the remission of sins, and trust in Jesus Christ.
What would you think? Most likely that the guy is a nut case. Guess what. Thats what the apostles did. I get people like you all the time.
You think some dude wearing a hat is better than just preaching the gospel as Christ, Peter, and Paul.
Dear Tammi,
You mentioned a few times that Jesus appealed to peoples felt needs. How does John 6:53-61 strike you? Not much of appealing to "felt needs" here. "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."
I suggest it would be helpful Tammi if you grabbed two things. 1. A good Bible. And. 2. Your cross of studying it. God bless. G.S.
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