Tuesday, February 12, 2008
McLaren - Heretic..."Quoting" Paul Washer?
I'm almost positive McLaren is "quoting" Paul Washer at the 1:45 mark of this video...
Was McLaren quoting Paul Washer? Listen to Paul Washer below...from the 3:40 minute mark - 7 minute mark.
Posted by Truth Matters at 6:22 PM
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24 comments:
I don't understand. God cannot forgive. That is a fact. If God is a just God, He can't forgive. We do not want justice, we want grace. I can't believe what McLaren is saying!
God must punish those who break the Law. That punishment is eternal seperation from Him in hell.
Proverbs 17:15 "He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD."
We are all dead in our sins. We are all wicked.
If God is just, He can not forgive us.
He can forgive us in Christ!
That's correct. Someone had to endure God's just wrath in our place and it was His Son, Jesus Christ.
Through Him we have forgiveness.
Repent and believe.
God cannot simply forgive us or he would not be a just God. That's why Christ paid the price.
Agreed. Sounds like McLaren is calling Washer a heretic. Certainly sounds like McLaren is talking about Paul Washer.
Either McLaren is quoting Paul Washer or it's one big coincidence. The good news is.....McLaren must be listening to some good preaching! Pray for Brian.
"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." Mark 13:22 (KJV)
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." II Thessalonians 2:11 (KJV)
What's with all these clueless Christians? How is it that people who have the benefit of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the warning and insight of the Sacred Scriptures--not to mention a rich Christian heritage here in America--can be so ignorant, blind, and naïve? Yes, the majority of evangelical Christians seem to be all of the above. The problem has passed being serious: it is catastrophic!
How is it that we have drifted away from being an informed, active, knowledgeable, and dedicated group of highly motivated Christian patriots to a group of impotent and anemic sheep? Our Christian forebears must be turning over in their graves, because we are in the process of squandering the greatest human sacrifice--save that of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ--ever made: the sacrifice of America's Founding Fathers.
The problem is manifold, of course. For the most part, our pastors have become glorified politicians and business executives. As attorneys are not schooled in the Constitution, today's ministers are not schooled in the Scriptures. They are motivational speakers, salesmen, and business managers. The Bible is only used as a side reference, if at all. It is not taught or preached literally. Pastors go through the Bible the way people go through a salad bar: gleaning a few sweet-tasting morsels and rejecting everything that appears the least bit distasteful.
Then there is the "fit-in-with-the-brethren" mentality. The politicos in Washington, D.C., have nothing on many pastors' fellowship groups. Fitting in with the denomination seems to be a far greater priority than being an independent man of God. And, of course, let's not forget the importance of not "making waves" with the deacons, elders, or church trustees. In a word, today's pastors have been very effectively neutered.
Another problem is the way our pastors and churches have become "success" driven. Churches used to focus on truth and discipleship. No more. The church-growth movement of the last three decades has produced a generation of Christians much more concerned about crowds, buildings, and activities than they are fidelity to truth. Church has become a numbers game where success is measured by attendance and offerings.
There is yet another problem: today's churches are completely enamored with power. No, not the power of God. They are completely infatuated with the power of men. Rich men. Popular men. Influential men. Celebrities. Politicians. Millionaires. Sports stars, etc.
Yet, listen to what God tells us about rich and powerful men. "Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?" James 2:6 (KJV)
Historically, it has always been the super-wealthy, super-powerful elements of society that have brought tyranny and persecution to God's people. It is the political and business elite who have trampled people's freedoms and liberties, enslaved their children, and ravaged their lands and properties.
Nothing has changed: the super-elite in the United States and Europe are continuing to do what they have always done. Both the Republican and Democrat parties are controlled by those who desire to create a globalistic society in which they will control the world's materials and peoples.
Both George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush have contributed to the tyrannical goals and ambitions of the super-elite. So has Bill Clinton. If John McCain, Mike Huckabee, Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama is elected, they will follow in the globalist footsteps of their predecessors.
The Christian professions of our political leaders mean nothing. Absolutely nothing! Putting an "R" behind his or her name also means nothing. Neither does calling oneself a "conservative" mean anything. Our political leaders are mostly walking in lockstep with the evil designs of the super-wealthy. Ditto for the executives who control our major media.
And our Christians and ministers seem to be absolutely clueless.
James Dobson endorses Mike Huckabee, as does Jerry Falwell, Jr., while Gary Bauer endorses John McCain. Yet, the truth is, one is as bad as the other. In fact, Huckabee is posturing himself to be McCain's running mate after McCain wins the nomination. Does anyone really believe that Mike Huckabee would turn down an invitation from John McCain to be his running mate? Get serious! Mike Huckabee would support the liberal, Big-Government John McCain with all of the enthusiasm he could muster. Why? Because Huckabee, himself, is a Big-Government liberal who has joined ideological forces with the super-elite who run both parties.
And no one within the Religious Right seems to get it. Say you are "pro-life" and "pro-family" and you are "in." Forget the Constitution. Forget national sovereignty and independence. Forget the principles of sound money. Forget the Bill of Rights. Forget "Just War" theory. Forget non-interventionism. Forget protecting American jobs and manufacturing. Forget putting America first. It's all about getting along with the establishment, having a seat at the table, and enjoying the perks of power.
Christians are supposed to be different. We are supposed to think differently. We are clearly commanded to "be not conformed to this world."
In addition, as Americans, our heritage and history is that of being "non-conformist." We loved liberty, freedom, and independence. We recognized no sovereign authority, save that of Jesus Christ. We believed in self-reliance and hard work. We didn't expect government handouts or charity. We believed in disciplining our children and did not expect that they would learn their values from government schools. We viewed human government with deep suspicion and demanded that it be held in check by powerful Bible preaching and by the constraints and restrictions of the U.S. Constitution.
Remember, it was the political and business elite who killed the Old Testament prophets, persecuted the early church, and crucified the Lord Jesus Christ. It was the political and business elite who oppressed our Pilgrim forebears. It was the political and business elite who tried to stamp out liberty and independence from the American colonies. And it is those same political and business elite who are forcing globalism, socialism, and fascism upon the American people today.
And our pastors and churches seem to be absolutely clueless.
Furthermore, when someone appears from outside the elitist mainstream, someone such as Congressman Ron Paul, he is ostracized, ignored, and even lampooned by the very people who should embrace and support him most: evangelical Christians.
The truth is, America is in the doo-doo we are in because of the cluelessness and cowardice of today's Christians. Or, has the elect been deceived? Have they succumbed to delusion? The result is the same either way.
Pastor Chuck Baldwin
McLaren is simply stating the doctrine Paul is teaching and saying that if it were as Paul is saying God is telling us to do something He cannot/will not do making the God of Paul Washer's teaching false. But McLaren is missing the bringing God down to our level, or us up, either is terribly wicked. We must forgive because we are NOT the Judge, it is Not our place to demand the payment for the wrong done to us. God is the judge and therefore simply cannot forgive without some substitution, which Christ became. However, we can and must because it is not our place to demand the payment, we are Not the Judge.
Has to be washer he's referring to. Who else would it be?
Wow, I wonder what McLaren's views of the Old Testament are? The animal sacrifices, the sudden destruction of disobedient Israelites during the wandering, Lot's wife looking back at Sodom and turning to salt, plagues, etc.
If Jesus did not atone for our sin on the cross, appeasing God's just anger that was due us sinners (Isaiah 53:10), then what was He doing there?
It's an atrociously poor strawman reiteration of anything Paul Washer may have said, if that is who he is referring to. But it could be ANYONE who is true to the Gospel -- including Todd Friel, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, etc.
Who is McLaren? Never heard of him. I'd rather see someone like this guy teaching outright lies than the dangerous Warren who dupes "baby" christians or christians that don't really know the Word of God.
pastorskid
it does sound like he is quoting Paul Washer! It is good that he is listening to him, unfortunately, like so many of his followers, they are just trying to bash what true Christians are saying. May God continue to bless Paul Washer's ministry!
Something you need to understand about these "emerging" heretics is that they are post-modern, and part of post-modernism is a denial of absolute truth. Without basing our reason and logic in absolute truth it is unreasonable and illogical. Thus they completely lack the ability to comprehend things rightly... their minds have been given over to deception and blindness to the truth. They don't understand that sin requires punishment. That's a logical statement that is clear when one examines 'sin' the way Washer does in that clip. But these heretics are blinded to it and can only see their limp-wristed, androgynous, pacifist 'god' created in their own warped minds. That 'god' better suits their desire to be OF the world.
Something you need to understand about these "emerging" heretics is that they are post-modern, and part of post-modernism is a denial of absolute truth. Without basing our reason and logic in absolute truth it is unreasonable and illogical. Thus they completely lack the ability to comprehend things rightly... their minds have been given over to deception and blindness to the truth. They don't understand that sin requires punishment. That's a logical statement that is clear when one examines 'sin' the way Washer does in that clip. But these heretics are blinded to it and can only see their limp-wristed, androgynous, pacifist 'god' created in their own warped minds. That 'god' better suits their desire to be OF the world.
I think he is referring to Paul Washer (I post his stuff on SermnoAudio and my Podcast and it sounds more like Washer than anyone else), but John Piper preached a powerful message similar to Washer's messages, a long time ago:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/go/jp/passion1998
McLaren is also leaving out of his illustration about kicking the dog, the fact that Christ said, "No one takes my life from Me, I lay it down of my own accord" (John 10:18). Jesus was not forcefully kicked (crucified), against His will, like a dog. Neither was Christ a lesser, weaker form of life (like a dog), that was taken advantage of... He was the King of Kings, which no one could kill unless He laid down His life freely. I covered this in a recent sermon on John 10:17-18:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12250720432610
In Christ,
matt haney
...has the elect been deceived? Have they succumbed to delusion?
Pastor Chuck Baldwin:
The elect (a remnant in the visible church) are not deceived and have not succumbed to delusion. The elect hope only in their Sovereign Lord and therefore do not fear the future.
I do not disagree with most of what you wrote. However, I do not put my hope in any man. I urge you to continue being an advocate for Jesus Christ, and not for Ron Paul.
Is Brian McLaren becoming an enemy of the Cross of Jesus Christ? While his signature and endorsement on the back of such books as Tony Campolo's Speaking My Mind and Dave Fleming's The Seeker's Way, was horrible enough, that was mild compared to what he has now done.
In the midst of Purpose Driven mania and an apparently sleeping church, Brian McLaren has endorsed a book that calls the doctrine of the Cross a vile doctrine. (p. 168, Reimagining Christianity - Alan Jones)
That book? None other than Alan Jones' new book, Reimagining Christianity. Alan Jones is an interspiritualist and mystic in every sense of the word. Take a look at the Living Spiritual Teachers Project, of which Jones is involved. This group of about twenty-five includes Zen and Buddhist monks, New Agers and even Marianne Williamson and her Course in Miracles. The goal of this group is to destroy the belief that Jesus Christ is the only way for redemption and to integrate other world religious beliefs into Christianity. For those who may wonder if this could possibly be true, take a look at the Living Spiritual Teacher's poster child - it is none other than Wayne Teasdale himself.
Not only does Alan Jones believe the Cross to be vile, he says that the spiritual practice of contemplative prayer will draw Christians into the realms of all other world religions. Now on this point, we have to agree with Mr. Jones. He couldn't be more right.
But what is Brian McLaren's name doing on this book? Listed two weeks ago in Time magazine as one of 25 most influential evangelical leaders, McLaren claims to be a believer. But would one who is bought with a price deny the One who's blood was shed for him?
Right now there are two groups of people who are rushing interspirituality and contemplative prayer into the world's midst.The first group consists of those who are not afraid nor do they keep secret the beliefs they hold. They include such as Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating, Wayne Teasdale, Bede Griffiths, Robert Schuller, Tilden Edwards, Alan Jones, Marcus Borg and the list goes on.
The second group, and in a sense a far more dangerous group because they outwardly wear the clothing of sheep, are nothing more than disciples of the first group. They include, to name a few: Richard Foster, Brennan Manning, Bruce Wilkinson, Eugene Peterson, John Ortberg, John Eldredge, Bill Hybels, and yes Rick Warren and Brian McLaren.
In time,we believe this second group will merge with this first group, proudly and openly. With Brian McLaren's help that task will be accomplished far sooner than some had expected.
Now the question is: Are true Christian leaders, pastors and lay persons going to speak up to defend the faith? Or will we wait, silently wait, as the Church did in Germany in the 30s, hoping that everything will work out just fine? Christianity and evangelicalism are being reimagined all right. But what will we call ourselves when that reinventing and reimaginging is finished?
"[H]e who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.... Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved..." - Jesus (John 10)
The above comment is excellent. I am seriously considering posting this blog article with some of the points mentioned in some of the comments here.
Is there anything that would show Bill Hybels being a pluralist or him making such a confession?
Joel
Brian McLaren's books. You should read some of them!
The Secret Message of Jesus
In many ways, all of my previous books are a preparation for this one. It is aimed at a broad audience - including "spiritual but not religious" seekers, members of nonChristian religions, and Christian leaders and thoughtful Christians. It is an exploration of the real "passion of Christ," which is the message of the kingdom of God.
The Last Word and the Word After That
This book completes the trilogy and extends the story of Dan Poole and Neo into some new "hot" territory. Dan struggles with the idea of hell, and does some research to learn about the origins of the idea. He also connects with a faith community that Neo is part of and gains a deeper understanding of the gospel, justice, and Jesus' message of the kingdom of God.
A Generous Orthodoxy
This book, released in late August 04, has elicited a lot of response already. The book turned out to be a confession - as in a confession of faith, not of sin (although some might think ...). The title is elucidated in a wonderful foreword by Dr. John Franke of Biblical Theological Seminary (thanks, John), and the overly long subtitle gives the table of contents of the book: Why I am a missional, evangelical, post/protestant, liberal/conservative, mystical/poetic, biblical, charismatic/contemplative, fundamentalist/calvinist, anabaptist/anglican, methodist, catholic, green, incarnational, depressed-yet-hopeful, emergent, unfinished Christian. It's my only book to contain a "Chapter 0."
Church in Emerging Culture; Five Perspectives
I had the idea for this book - on the relationship of church to culture, and especially emerging postmodern culture - and proposed it to Emergent/YS. I think it will be an important book - helping turn potentially divisive issues into shared concerns.
Adventures in Missing the Point
This was a book I had been thinking about writing for a couple of years. When I brought it to EmergentYS, they suggested Tony Campolo as a coauthor. We divvied up the chapters, and then each of us wrote a response to the other's chapters. Tony disagrees with me on several points, which is part of what makes the book interesting and fun, I think. We've gotten really positive response on this book, especially from people in "the Christian subculture" who feel it kicks some doors down and opens some windows for needed fresh air.
A Is For Abductive
This book, coauthored with Len Sweet and Jerry Haselmayer, is set up like a dictionary: A is for ... B is for ... It's not heavy reading, but attempts to deliver some important content in short chunks of intense (and sometimes light-hearted) prose. Several entries (like "Deconstruction") tackle difficult terms and seek to show their relevance for life and ministry in the emerging culture. It was a blast to work with Len on the content, with Jerry focusing on "epictivities" for groups.
The Story We Find Ourselves In
This is the sequel to A New Kind of Christian, second in the trilogy. It is the most important book I've written so far, I think. It's an attempt to tell the Biblical story. One of the most surprising responses I have received about the book is from men who tell me the book brought them to tears. I hope someday to come back to the "seven episodes" explored in this book: if I ever write a "theology," I think it would emerge from this telling of the Biblical story.
More Ready Than You Realize
This is a book about sharing your faith. It's based on a series of emails exchanged between a bright and sincere young seeker and me, and its goal is to help people learn how/to be "spiritual friends" to others who are searching for a faith that is real.
A New Kind of Christian
I started this book as a totally nonfiction treatise on Christianity and postmodernity, but after I got about 100 pages into it, I realized the book was on the road to becoming 500 pages of abstraction - and no one would read it. So, I started over, taking the advice of a perceptive reviewer of "The Church on the Other Side." If McLaren is serious about what he's saying, the reviewer said, he should be writing fiction. So, I began rewriting using a fictional dialogue as framework for the book. The book has made a few people angry, as you can discover by doing a search at Christianity Today (or reading comments at Amazon). But the negative comments have, so far at least, been negligible compared to the affirming ones. I set the book up so that it could be the first of a trilogy.
Finding Faith
I wrote this book for my friends who are searching for God, but find traditional Christian "apologetics" more an obstacle than a bridge. Many Christians, including quite a few pastors, have told me it has helped them too. I think it's some of my best writing, and may still be the book that I care most about.
The Church on the Other Side
This was my first book (originally entitled - against my recommendation - "Reinventing Your Church"). This book introduces all the topics I explore in my other books, and many churches have used it for group study, finding it a helpful (and gentle) introduction to the conversation about Christian faith-life-mission and the emerging postmodern culture.
How sad it is when we begin calling each other heretics. To say that God can not forgive, however, is to limit God. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, ... and certainly all-merciful and all-just. God can do anything that God desires. To impose our limited understanding of justice on God is near sighted at best. To impose our limited understanding of justice on God is to say that he is limited as we are limited. Embrace the mystery that God can both forgive and yet be fully just! In the midst of the Garden of Eden, God provided clothing for Adam and Eve even though they did not ask for forgiveness but rather shifted the blame for their distrust and disobedience. And while God punished them and banished them from the Garden of Eden, God sought them out in the midst of their distrust and disobedience and sought to restore the to a loving, trusting relationship with him. Even their punishment (Not a curse!) was given to them out of a desire to help them come to understand their need to completely trust and obey him. It saddens me ... and I believe that it saddens God ... when we so readily attack each other. I have met Brian McLaren and have heard him speak a number of times. Is his theology perfect? Absolutely not ... but I have yet to meet anyone whose theology is perfect. I believe Brian McLaren to be bold follower of Jesus the Christ!
Dear Anonymous,
Wow! There is so much about your comment that chills my spine; I don't even know where to begin.
Since this is a very old post, I will only reply to one of your points. You said,"In the midst of the Garden of Eden, God provided clothing for Adam and Eve..."
Yes He did. He provided a temporary covering of SKINS for their sin. God's justice required that SOMETHING HAD TO DIE and it was there in the garden that He introduced the first sacrifice and gave them the first messianic prophesy of the ONE who would be slain for our sins.
Amen brother Ralph!
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